Hi Mike. I agree with your response in that I like the idea of correcting a child's errors while reading immediately. Although I can see Smith's point about discouraging a child and disrupting their flow while reading, I think it is important for the child to know what the correct word is so that they can make sense of what they are reading. Also, if other children are following along with the reader, it is important for them to know that an error has been made. With that said, there is a time and a place for everything and it depends on the situation if it is appropriate to correct the child's error immediately or to wait until they have completed their reading to provide feedback. As for the comment regarding identifying and treating problem readers as early as possible, I have to say that the school my children attend does an excellent job providing extra assistance to a struggling reader. They do not "label" these students, rather they discretely take them into another room where they are given one on one attention for as little as 15 minutes a day. I appreciate the fact that they may provide even a kindergartener with extra help. I feel that the earlier a child gets extra help, the quicker they will become a successful reader.
"Scaffolding" is different from addressing the readers' problems immediately. Remediating quick and early can have long lasting negative affects on students. Let's say that a child is in first grade and isn't learning to read independently as soon as the other kids. Let's say that this child enjoys books, is following along the story when it is read aloud, loves to ask questions and respond to the teacher's questions while reading, is able to "read" a few words, but isn't yet reading independently by Feb. of the first grade. So, the teacher gets worried because he's not keeping up with the pre-determined skill level of children that age and starts having a reading specialist pull him out of class. The reading specialist then drills the child on the alphabet and the sounds of the letter. The child is now missing out of the read alouds by the teacher. The child now doesn't want to go with the specialist. The child now thinks that there is something wrong with him. This is the scenario that Smith is referring to. I would say that he is by no means saying that teachers shouldn't scaffold--in fact he is a big advocate of that. So Mike, you say that you Smith has "got it wrong" on almost all of his points. As you consider those points as a future teacher of reading I strongly encourage you to find more data, to look out beyond your own experience and what you are seeing in the classrooms you are involved in. Why do you think there is a very large body of teachers who would agree with Smith? I'm not suggesting that you have to agree with him by any means....but...I do want you to consider the importance of keeping an open mind and to challenge your assumptions throughout the program. Who knows what you will discover!
I said I felt Smith got # 8 wrong and # 9 right. I said that “most of his points fit with a constructivist model” that I would support in general.
I read on and saw what he said about dyslexia, which to me exposes preconceptions he has and goes against both the brain research I have read on the subject, discussions I have had with educational psychologists, and personal experience.
If that puts me in a minority, based upon our current performance as a profession, I’m quite glad to be at odds with the majority on this one.
Hi Mike Sorry, if I misheard what you said in your post. So, what do you think about my comment of being open to having your assumptions challenged? I know that for me part of the intellectual and creative "fun" of teaching is reconsidering assumptions that I have about teaching and learning. I wonder which assumptions you (as well as your peers) have that you aren't willing to budge and which assumptions you are willing to take another look at? It's good to develop a sense of that so that we can know the areas in which we feel the strongest about. When it comes to the teaching of reading, it is a decades long national debate. Frank Smith's article captures those issues that educators disagree on. It's definitely good to be aware of those issues and to be willing to articulate our stance on those issues. Good conversation.
I happy to blast all assumptions as they make an Ass out of U and Me.
I've had to deal with others assumptions all my life. Both good and bad.
I get a sense that many have a great problem with overcoming assumption due to their livelihoods being based upon assumptions.
In addition, specific to teaching, most assumption mucks up the need for differentiated instruction.
I’ll keep an open mind until someone says this is the way the world is. That is usually when I get suspicious and ask further questions or become the critique.
Hi Mike - it is interesting to hear about your experience with dyslexia and your thoughts on addressing readers' problems immediately. I think you were saying that your reading difficulties were addressed early on and you appreciated that right? Did you ever recall feeling like you were different or excluded from regular classroom activities to get extra help in reading or did you always appreciate it? I'm just interested to see if your thoughts about early intervention have changed from a dislike of it in school to now an appreciation of it..
I knew I was "different" early on. I also realized that there was no norm, so found schools trying to make everyone fit in very odd. By having both a dose of dyslexia and now knowing I'm "ADHD with benefits" meant I bounced around from honors classes to remedial classes. I was included and excluded, but didn't label them. I just was.
By seeing the full range of folks I realized how similar we all where. I laugh at all of this because I saw very early that "The learned are not wise and the wise are not learned." as an old Taoist saying goes.
This led me to reject the corporate/academic world except when I wanted some fun. I am a high achiever who gets bored and distracted by what most find fulfilling over time. I exclude myself from classrooms even today due to boredom. (Hence the Online switch) I tend to get from a to z and am usually right very quickly, and don't have much time for those who have to go from a-b-c-d etc.
I'm now sure that the extra help and ealry intervention have kept me above water. But then I did have the driven personality that says let's find the result and move on to next. May not be the same with all struggling readers. Although I get a sense that we are enabaling many to continue to fail.
Mike, thanks for sharing your agreement as well as your disagreement regarding some of Smith’s proposed “Not To’s”. While I really enjoyed his reading, you opened my eyes to the need to remember to “balance”, a “let it be” attitude, with a “let it begin with me” more proactive attitude towards identifying a possible reading disability.
Identifying the problem as soon as possible can be very helpful, if the teacher is skillful enough to “help rather than interfere” as Smith proposes. I also agree with you about the “spelling” as being unneeded and totally overrated in regards to evaluating the “thinking” process behind the reading. How well or accurately a child –or an adult for this matter- spells should not be an indicator of how smart or capable he/she is, but of how well he/she can spell. Why does our education system put so much emphasis on accuracy? -And uniformity and standardized levels of literacy and performance? What do these standards do to our students –and to all of us people-?
Mike , I like this comment very much, thanks for uncovering it for me: "In addition, specific to teaching, most assumption mucks up the need for differentiated instruction."
Ashley, good question to Mike: "Did you ever recall feeling like you were different or excluded from regular classroom activities to get extra help in reading or did you always appreciate it?". thanks for the reminder of asking questions like yours as part of the blog, -essential and meaty-. If we take this skill to our classes, they will be full of thought provoking conversations! And thanks Mike for your detailed answer. I like this space we are creating where we can learn from each other's life experiences and learning preferences. Thanks.
Hi Mike. I agree with your response in that I like the idea of correcting a child's errors while reading immediately. Although I can see Smith's point about discouraging a child and disrupting their flow while reading, I think it is important for the child to know what the correct word is so that they can make sense of what they are reading. Also, if other children are following along with the reader, it is important for them to know that an error has been made. With that said, there is a time and a place for everything and it depends on the situation if it is appropriate to correct the child's error immediately or to wait until they have completed their reading to provide feedback. As for the comment regarding identifying and treating problem readers as early as possible, I have to say that the school my children attend does an excellent job providing extra assistance to a struggling reader. They do not "label" these students, rather they discretely take them into another room where they are given one on one attention for as little as 15 minutes a day. I appreciate the fact that they may provide even a kindergartener with extra help. I feel that the earlier a child gets extra help, the quicker they will become a successful reader.
ReplyDelete"Scaffolding" is different from addressing the readers' problems immediately. Remediating quick and early can have long lasting negative affects on students. Let's say that a child is in first grade and isn't learning to read independently as soon as the other kids. Let's say that this child enjoys books, is following along the story when it is read aloud, loves to ask questions and respond to the teacher's questions while reading, is able to "read" a few words, but isn't yet reading independently by Feb. of the first grade. So, the teacher gets worried because he's not keeping up with the pre-determined skill level of children that age and starts having a reading specialist pull him out of class. The reading specialist then drills the child on the alphabet and the sounds of the letter. The child is now missing out of the read alouds by the teacher. The child now doesn't want to go with the specialist. The child now thinks that there is something wrong with him.
ReplyDeleteThis is the scenario that Smith is referring to. I would say that he is by no means saying that teachers shouldn't scaffold--in fact he is a big advocate of that.
So Mike, you say that you Smith has "got it wrong" on almost all of his points. As you consider those points as a future teacher of reading I strongly encourage you to find more data, to look out beyond your own experience and what you are seeing in the classrooms you are involved in. Why do you think there is a very large body of teachers who would agree with Smith? I'm not suggesting that you have to agree with him by any means....but...I do want you to consider the importance of keeping an open mind and to challenge your assumptions throughout the program. Who knows what you will discover!
Hi Dr Bryant
ReplyDeleteI am rather confused by your comments.
I said I felt Smith got # 8 wrong and # 9 right. I said that “most of his points fit with a constructivist model” that I would support in general.
I read on and saw what he said about dyslexia, which to me exposes preconceptions he has and goes against both the brain research I have read on the subject, discussions I have had with educational psychologists, and personal experience.
If that puts me in a minority, based upon our current performance as a profession, I’m quite glad to be at odds with the majority on this one.
Hi Mike
ReplyDeleteSorry, if I misheard what you said in your post.
So, what do you think about my comment of being open to having your assumptions challenged? I know that for me part of the intellectual and creative "fun" of teaching is reconsidering assumptions that I have about teaching and learning. I wonder which assumptions you (as well as your peers) have that you aren't willing to budge and which assumptions you are willing to take another look at? It's good to develop a sense of that so that we can know the areas in which we feel the strongest about. When it comes to the teaching of reading, it is a decades long national debate. Frank Smith's article captures those issues that educators disagree on. It's definitely good to be aware of those issues and to be willing to articulate our stance on those issues.
Good conversation.
Dr Bryant
ReplyDeleteI happy to blast all assumptions as they make an Ass out of U and Me.
I've had to deal with others assumptions all my life. Both good and bad.
I get a sense that many have a great problem with overcoming assumption due to their livelihoods being based upon assumptions.
In addition, specific to teaching, most assumption mucks up the need for differentiated instruction.
I’ll keep an open mind until someone says this is the way the world is. That is usually when I get suspicious and ask further questions or become the critique.
Hi Mike - it is interesting to hear about your experience with dyslexia and your thoughts on addressing readers' problems immediately. I think you were saying that your reading difficulties were addressed early on and you appreciated that right? Did you ever recall feeling like you were different or excluded from regular classroom activities to get extra help in reading or did you always appreciate it? I'm just interested to see if your thoughts about early intervention have changed from a dislike of it in school to now an appreciation of it..
ReplyDeleteHi Ashley
ReplyDeleteI knew I was "different" early on. I also realized that there was no norm, so found schools trying to make everyone fit in very odd. By having both a dose of dyslexia and now knowing I'm "ADHD with benefits" meant I bounced around from honors classes to remedial classes. I was included and excluded, but didn't label them. I just was.
By seeing the full range of folks I realized how similar we all where. I laugh at all of this because I saw very early that "The learned are not wise and the wise are not learned." as an old Taoist saying goes.
This led me to reject the corporate/academic world except when I wanted some fun. I am a high achiever who gets bored and distracted by what most find fulfilling over time. I exclude myself from classrooms even today due to boredom. (Hence the Online switch) I tend to get from a to z and am usually right very quickly, and don't have much time for those who have to go from a-b-c-d etc.
I'm now sure that the extra help and ealry intervention have kept me above water. But then I did have the driven personality that says let's find the result and move on to next. May not be the same with all struggling readers. Although I get a sense that we are enabaling many to continue to fail.
Mike, thanks for sharing your agreement as well as your disagreement regarding some of Smith’s proposed “Not To’s”. While I really enjoyed his reading, you opened my eyes to the need to remember to “balance”, a “let it be” attitude, with a “let it begin with me” more proactive attitude towards identifying a possible reading disability.
ReplyDeleteIdentifying the problem as soon as possible can be very helpful, if the teacher is skillful enough to “help rather than interfere” as Smith proposes.
I also agree with you about the “spelling” as being unneeded and totally overrated in regards to evaluating the “thinking” process behind the reading. How well or accurately a child –or an adult for this matter- spells should not be an indicator of how smart or capable he/she is, but of how well he/she can spell. Why does our education system put so much emphasis on accuracy? -And uniformity and standardized levels of literacy and performance? What do these standards do to our students –and to all of us people-?
Mike , I like this comment very much, thanks for uncovering it for me: "In addition, specific to teaching, most assumption mucks up the need for differentiated instruction."
ReplyDeleteAshley, good question to Mike: "Did you ever recall feeling like you were different or excluded from regular classroom activities to get extra help in reading or did you always appreciate it?". thanks for the reminder of asking questions like yours as part of the blog, -essential and meaty-. If we take this skill to our classes, they will be full of thought provoking conversations!
ReplyDeleteAnd thanks Mike for your detailed answer. I like this space we are creating where we can learn from each other's life experiences and learning preferences. Thanks.